Forum:2009-07-13 (Monday)
Discussion for comic for Whoa. Two Hundred Years, Von Pinn does not look a day over Forty-nine. I wonder if her king is the Storm King? Or was it one of the Heterodynes? Imagine, Von Pinn a Van Rijn. I wonder if she predates or postdates the muses. I wonder what the castle wanted to say? We are back to idiocy. Von Pinn gets a potential Darwin award for not taking the death ray away from Agatha when she had the chance. Agatha gets an even bigger potential Darwin award for aiming the ray at the floor instead of von Pinn. Stay tuned for the next death defying episode of Agatha Heterodyne, Girl Genius Idiot. --Rej ¤¤? 06:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC) : Von Pinn has Agatha's arms pinned (sorry) at her side. It'd be difficult to aim the thing at her without telegraphing her moves. This way, Von Pinn has to save her from falling at Von Pinn's own expense. Agatha did that very deliberately. -- Corgi 07:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC) :: Umm. Von Pinn is holding Agatha's arms above the elbows. That leaves both elbows and wrists for Agatha to move, with Von Pinn at point blank range. So I'll stick with what I said. --Rej ¤¤? 00:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC) ::: And now you say what, Rej? -- Corgi 09:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC) Von Pinn's king gave her an order two hundred years ago and was "a romantic fool in many ways." I think that rules out the Heterodynes. But I don't think it's far back enough to have been the Storm King. I confess I'm a bit puzzled on that one. Whoever he was, he seems to have known that Agatha would be a problem. Von Pinn seems surprised that Agatha cared about the Clays, and thinks other people need to be protected from Agatha. I think Von Pinn knows that Agatha is possessed by the Other, and her "beloved king" knew about it because of time travel. My money is on Tarvek, though Othar is also a possibility. (He seems to do a lot of that sort of thing, based on his Twitter feed.) In any case, now we have a reason for Von Pinn's hatred of Lucrezia. And I think the Castle knows what has Von Pinn all riled up and was trying to tell her, but couldn't get a word in edgewise. Nekokami 12:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC) :My money, if I had some in a bet over the origin of Von Pinn, is heavily laid on the Storm King. "Spark styles run in the family," and Tarvek's may be no exception. In fact, the Storm King might have designed Von Pinn to "keep the female heterodyne heir safe." Or something not specific enough to guarantee that only his love was included, but all female Heterodynes were. Or maybe just "the hetereodyne heir." ◄WTarrasque► ( T | | ) Here’s my take away. Von Pinn’s creator (Storm King or Van Rijn?) is aware of the other but doesn’t want its potential host harmed. Why else would Von Pinn be told to watch Agatha and not simply kill her? She later contradicts this by her statement that she thought she could just kill Agatha and then just guard her tomb. Von Pin’s statement about her last mistress not wanting her (Agatha) harmed is interesting. It can be inferred that the last mistress was Lucrezia and that she also ordered Von Pinn to protect Agatha from physical harm under any circumstance. Ohh… wait. What if Von Pinn’s creator wasn’t afraid of the other but wanted the Heterodyne heir (who ever it might be) watched so that if they became a rallying point for Europa they could be assassinated?Thanos007 14:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC) I think WTarrasque summed it best so far. Let me try a few riffs. Andronicus, who seems to have been a Spark himself (yes/no?), built (or had built) Von Pinn to protect Euphrosynia after things went pear-shaped for the two of them. (Good pickup on the timeframe, everyone - it didn't occur to me at first.) Somehow her imperatives got mangled; she started interpreting her orders liberally - and I think she killed Euphrosynia. Now after a long time, she's got another female Heterodyne heir, she's conflating the two of them (as are so many at this point), but she's been bound by additional orders, to wit, Lucrezia's. Whether this actually involves the history of the Other as well... I don't think that's clear yet. A Heterodyne Spark is dangerous enough. I must say, she's got far more malign intent than I had expected. I feel like I owe somebody an apology for my optimism.... -- Corgi 16:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC) :What’s really intriguing here is that Von Pin is not a Heterodyne creation. Who saw that coming?Thanos007 16:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC) Hm. I had thought the Storm King lived longer ago than that, but according to Master Payne, the Muses survived "over a hundred years" by hiding in traveling shows, etc. So that does put the time frame about right. Von Pinn doesn't look like a Van Rijn to me, though. His known creations were clanks, not constructs. Tarvek also seems to work primarily with clanks and such mechanical parts, though he attempts interfaces with the organic, leading me to wonder if the Storm King was also more mechanically minded. Sparks have styles, and styles run in families. In which case... who made Von Pinn? And how did she come to be in the service of the Heterodynes/Lucrezia? The idea of Von Pinn killing Euphrosynia is interesting, but I think it's just as likely that Euphrosynia (a Heterodyne) made Von Pinn, possibly even to protect the Storm King, or as a gift for him. Von Pinn's reaction on meeting Tarvek will be very interesting to see. Nekokami 18:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC) : Agathas says you couldn´t tell Moxana is over 200 years old; the year in the series right now is 1893 or thereabouts, the real world Van Rijn died 1669, and the real world Sun King (the model for the Storm King; FWIW House Valois, the Storm King´s family name, used to be kings of France 1328-1589) assumed control of government in 1661 at age 25. I would assume then that the Muses were created in the 1660´s and Von Pinn somewhat afterwards, perhaps by Andronicus himself. : Regarding Von Pinn killing Euphrosynia and planning to kill Agatha - remember that death isn´t as irreversible in Girl Genius as in reality. -Sir Chaos 19:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC) :: but destroying the brain still kills a person permanently Finn MacCool 21:24, 13 July 2009 (UTC) Would I be considered completely idiotic if I suggested Pinn might not be a Storm King and/or Heterodyne creation at all? - as Nekokami said, Van Rijn made clanks, not constructs. I feel totally stupid for even laying this out there, but she couldn't be a Mongfish creation, could she? - Hut 6:35 14 July 2009 Let's suppose it's clear that Lucrezia was von Pinn's previous mistress (perhaps using slaver tech? Would the weasel-things have found her out?). Remember that the "Holy Child" was entrusted to the Geisterdamen -- and they lost her. I've always thought it clear that they lost her to the Heterodyne Boys, which is why she ends up in the care of Barry. So when did Lucrezia order von Pinn to watch over Agatha? Answer: she didn't. Lucrezia, after all, made von Pinn Klaus Barry's nursemaid. All we know is that it was Lucrezia's "interference" that meant von Pinn had to keep Agatha alive. On the assumption that von Pinn can't possibly be up to date on the goings-on at Sturmhalten, this can only mean that Lucrezia "interfered" before Wulfenbach took her on as Nanny-in-Chief on Castle Wulfenbach. So.... What does that mean? I kind of have no idea. But I think it's important to remember what (little) we know about Agatha's pre- and post-natal timeline. --Cantabrian 10:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC) :I think every one is in agreement that Lucrezia was von Pinn’s previous mistress but I’m not convinced that at that time Lucrezia was the Other if she ever was. Every one’s assuming that von Pinn’s instructions are about Agatha. What if they are a little broader? What if the original creator, who ever it was (male and a king), told her to watch the, pick one a) potential host(s) for the other or b) the Heterodyne heir(s?)? What if Lucrezia’s instructions were similar? “Watch/protect my child/Heterodyne heir.” :As far as timelines, does any one realize that for all that’s happened though the course of the strip we know precious little about anything? We’re not even sure what year this is taking place in. For the record I’m in the late 1900’s camp. I hope we start getting answers soon in stead of more questions ala von Pinn’s statements.Thanos007 15:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC) :: Sorry, but from the scene in the Heterodyne crypt we know that Klaus Barry was born 1*72 (with * being either 8 or 9); the times given on his grave indicate Agatha was born at most two years later (between 3 and 9 months after the 407 days which Klaus Barry was alive), so if she is 18 years old during Part V (as she says to Vrin), that would be 1*92 or 1*93. Given the lifetime of the real Van Rijn and the real Sun King who is the model for the Storm King and a relative of the real House of Valois (the Storm King´s family), we can assume that the Muses were built in the 1660´s; Agatha says they are over 200 years old, which would make no sense if it was 1992, in which case she would say "over 300 years old". -Sir Chaos 17:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC) ::: If such is the case why have the professors played coy with anything showing the date? No offence but you assume much. Or would you be suggesting they are avoiding giveing hard dates to avoid continutiy errors? ::::They love to dangle string in front of cats. Look at how big a fuss has been made over what was under Agatha's foot. Surely the tellers have decided which it is.There are several clues suggesting 1800's. Sun King, Our Van Rijn, Steampunk theme, A sketch of Klaus reading Bangs Journal --Rej ¤¤? 00:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC) :::: Just to play devil's advocate - I feel the need to point out that there's no rule that says dates have to coincide with the ones in our world. Personally, I think the dates are left fudged because setting a firm date would attach all sorts of historical accuracy questions and comparisons. — m (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC) ::::: I think that my assumptions make more sense than the assumption that the Profs have deliberately placed their version of historical figures in the wrong century just to screw with us. -Sir Chaos 20:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC) ::::: HI, I've been lurking and enjoying reading for some time. Some of these theories are fascinating, so I've finally joined. On the subject of dating, I think the ruler of Albion is clearly meant to suggest a resemblance to Queen Victoria. (Brrokk 08:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)) Maybe what the Castle was trying to say is that Punch and Judy, possibly escorted by Othar, are now entering or even IN the Castle. Nekokami 03:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC) : Wow, I like that theory! Somehow if "fits" with the "kind of thing that happens" here. What was the castle trying to say? "No need for" revenge because Punch & Judy are OK? Or is the castle worried because the death ray is pointing at its brain? (Brrokk 08:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)) Some more thoughts on what Von Pinn has said: "I have waited over two hundred years to fulfil my purpose" "My creator did not charge me with your protection" - 200+ years ago. "My beloved king has charged me with the solemn duty to protect you" - so "my beloved king" isn't "my creator"! "due to the interference of my last mistress I am compelled to defend..." - how is that interference if "beloved king" had already given the same instruction? (1) "Last mistress" was before "beloved king", thus ruling out Lucrezia+Andronicus, or (2) Lucrezia used time travel to go back and influence Andronicus. I would add a link to the previous occasion when Von Pinn said, "Klaus, she is mine!" in the context of an argument about Agatha's parentage. She also shows anger at the suggestion that Punch and Judy fill the role of parents. She has at least some of Lucrezia's mind/personality/motivations. (Brrokk 10:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)) : Yes, Creator, Beloved King and Last Mistress are apparently three different people (or at least three different sets of orders). She believed she could serve both the Creator and the Beloved King by killing Agatha (thus keeping everyone else safe from her and fulfilling Creator's command) and protecting her tomb (thus fulfilling Beloved King's command). Last Mistress's (presumably and most likely Lucrezia) command was to keep Agatha ALIVE. As a completely oddball theory, I wonder if Barry has been hither, thither and yon throughout the time stream and, having to deal with the Other, is Von Pinn's creator (still leaving the Storm King to be her Beloved King). Whoever her Creator is, His Last Orders were to keep Agatha "safe", meaning (to Von Pinn, who has been indicated to be insane - though that may also not be true) "safe for those around" her. That sounds an awful lot like what the locket was supposed to do - both protect her and protect those around her. So if it's not Uncle Barry, they're working towards similar purposes.--Socks, Eclectic Genius 11:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC) : Sorry, but I don't think that can be quite right. I don't think killing Agatha and guarding her tomb is a reasonable interpretation of "My beloved king has charged me with the solemn duty to protect you". Therefore, Von Pinn could only have contemplated the tomb guarding before she had the orders from "beloved king". Truly, she is serving too many masters! (Brrokk 12:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)) :: "Reasonable" being the key word there. But it is the interpretation Von Pinn has: "I once thought I could render you harmless by killing you..." - thus fulfilling the first command - "...and still protect you by guarding your tomb." - thus fulfilling the second. That doesn't mean that Von Pinn is reasonable. She certainly contemplated just killing Agatha before the Beloved King gave her orders to protect Agatha; that would keep everyone else safe from her. The "tomb guarding" was her attempt to do both at the same time because, yes, she was already trying to serve two masters at that point. Throw in Lucrezia's commands and now she's confused.--Socks, Eclectic Genius 14:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC) :: No, sorry to seem stubborn, but... "My beloved king has charged me with the solemn duty to protect you" seems to me to refer to something after "My creator did not charge me with your protection... he meant 'safe' for those around you... I once thought... guarding your tomb." The solemn duty to protect is what ruled out the tomb guarding. The interference of the last mistress may or may not be what prompted the king to give the "protect" instruction. Von Pinn seems to be describing her instructions in the wrong chronological order. (Brrokk 08:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC))